Forum Activity for @john-keane

My wife and I both own Cedar Creek dulcimers (my profile picture is one). They are well made and the folks there are some of the nicest people that you'll ever deal with.

I'll throw in my point of view here, too. When I make a short webcam video, I work diligently to play through the tune without errors, get the sound to work and sound good, and frankly I generally scrunch up my face intensely while doing it! No way am I able to focus on "smiling from the joy that playing brings me" when I'm concentrating so hard! That being said, I do appreciate when others manage to include their heads, but mostly when watching a dulcimer player I really want to see their hands and the instrument so I can learn from their technique. So, sorry to say, you won't see much of my face and/or head on any video, by design! ;-)

Beth, it's an honor to have made one of your ALL TIME FAVORITE Dulcimer videos! Spread the joy;)

That is so hillarious! One of my ALL TIME FAVORITE Dulcimer videos! Thanks Macy Jayne!

Macy Jayne said:

See my video response to this very serious discussion;) It's titled 'Headless Vid'?

(i inserted said video here for you- Strumelia)

See how much fun it is to show your head???? Even with a bag over it, it's just pure fun.

Hahaha, well this is better than no heads at all i think. LOL

See my video response to this very serious discussion;) It's titled 'Headless Vid'?

(i inserted said video here for you- Strumelia)

I'm with you Mandy, I love watching not only the hands but the expressions and concentration of the musician as well. It's part of the fun. It can even be amusing at times, like when watchingStephen Seifert's signature chicken head movement that he does.

My little Flip video camera does not have much of a field of view, and it is hard enough to get the instrument in the picture. Also its microphone is none too good and I have to be fairly close to get the sound in! If I get a better camera, I'll shoot better videos. Promise!

I generally appear headless. Including my face in the video just makes the experience more stressful for me somehow, and in any case I usually want people to be thinking about the music rather than me ...

Ya just never know...

Wayne Anderson said:

I feel a JohnK original coming, yes I sure do.

LOL this thread has gone to the gutter! LOL

Okay...that was funny!

John Henry said:

Can't wait for verse 4 Jim !

JohnH

well if the next doesn't included everyone (men and women) going Full Monty (using British Royal Naval slang, here folks) then it sounds good to me.

Jim Edwards said:

Here's what I may try next time:

Verse 1 - show just the hands

Verse 2 - show a TAB of the song

Verse 3 - show full body and face

How does that sound?

Cheers,

Jim

Mandy; They're hiding a special connection from you. They are all members of the Icabod Crane Society of Dulcimer Players the oldest and most secretive association of dulcimer practitioners in the world. The group meets in odd (naturally) numbered years on October 31st, at the Gazebo in Sleepy Hollow...

ROFLMAO Love the pic. Are you a cat burgler in your other proffession and don't want to be seen. You filched the crown jewels.

Can't wait for verse 4 Jim !

JohnH

Signed photo's available thro' the president of my USA fan club (JohnK), or copies of original artwork from Dana Mac !!!

JohnH

Ok I guess I should just give up on wanting the heads then

I really do understand but a gal can wish right? But when I do a search for dulcimer vids on youtube (recent ones) I've noticed several things. First, there really aren't very many. Second when they are there they are headless. Dang it all. I'm definitely in the minority here but my viewing preference on youtube is as follows-

1. I like a homemade video (professionally done ones are nice, but it loses some coolness for me)

2. I want to hear your voice. I just would like to see your face and you say "here's amazing grace tuned to DAA" or whatever. Maybe also a quick little bit about how hard or easy it was for you to learn. I don't want you to talk your head off (pun intended) or anything, but just a short and sweet little talky talk. Sometimes I do this and others I don't when I do vids. If I could do them all again though I'd add a little talkin' in the beginning.

I guess my whole goal of the youtube experience is to be entertained instead of worrying about seeing your hands. Yes it really does make sense to show as much of the dulcimer and hands as possible for people who want to copy you, but I'd rather just see your head. When people ask me how I did a certain song I'll just tell them the chords I used and maybe if I used a specific pattern or whatever. I did do some basic instructional banjo vids (have had good feedback) where I did some close-ups of my fretting hand, but after the close-ups I went right back to regular head included stuff.

Here's a question though. I'm not trying to get under anyone's skin here with this either but is every single video everyone makes supposed to be a tutorial on how to play that song? If that's the case it sort of takes some of the fun out of it for me. I'm not trying to judge anyone here either I just really enjoy seeing you.

I also completely understand the limitations people have as far as recording equipment goes. I was using a very old camera to record my stuff until very recently and all my videos turned out really dark.

Well thanks everyone for enlightening me on this serious matter. Dusty - I see what you mean. Brian G. - Good idea!! I like everyone's vids regardless of whether or not I can see them but if anyone was reluctant to show their face in the past, hopefully you've seen this and see there is a demand out there to see your face and maybe just maybe some of you will indulge me.

Thanks everyone

Hi Mandy. I can only speak for me, but here are my reasons:

I use my phone to make these videos, and it has no optical zoom. If I put the phone far enough back so that you could see my face, the dulcimer and the rest of me would be just a tiny speck overall in the frame. My initial intention for these videos was to serve as a kind of visual record for tunes that I know (since I had forgotten many I used to know from when I played in the mid-1990s). Therefore, it was important to me to be able to see both of my hands, so that when I forget one of these tunes, I could actually remember/relearn it from the video. Since then, I've had some other people tell me that they also like that they can see both hands, so after that I never though to try to change the camera angle.

Then, of course, there's the fact that I am not going gracefully into this whole "losing-my-hair-as-I-age" thing, and there's no need to highlight that. :)

Finally, I don't want to take any more focus away from the shirts. Ask John K and John Henry - it's all about the shirts. :)

Now do you see what we are shielding you from Mandy !!! lol (Dusty, I know that we have all had to tighten our belts a bit over here, but did'nt realise Her Maj' had been reduced to flogging off part of the crown jewels ?)

John

I think I've posted one video which includes my head (but I wear a hat in that one). The rest just show the dulcimer. Why?

Vain answer : My face is so handsome that I don't want to distract people from the music.

Self-deprecating answer : Since I look at the fretboard while I play, all you'd see would be my receding hairling. And if I lifted my face up, all you would see would be my double chin. It's a lose/lose.

Serious answers :

1) I have learned a lot (nearly all) of my dulcimer playing from watching other people's videos and I would like to pass on that method of learning. But if I were to sit far enough back from my webcam to get my face in the video, no one could see my fingers on the fretboard.

2) Ienjoy the anonymity of using an online moniker and not showing my face. I have no trouble sharing my legal name with people here; just send me a personal message and you can learn the name the IRS knows me by. But my entire professional life is online. I work online but sometimes I don't want to be at work. So as a private citizen pursuing a private passion online, I create a senseof privacy by using a different name and not showing my face (save my avatar). For example, right now I am about a month late with a project at work and I don't want my bossto figure out that I'm hanging out with Mandy the banjo/dulcimer galwhen I have so much work to do!

Butsince you asked:

Now you've learned; watch out or you might get what you wished for!

Haha in all seriousness, I do understand why people only show the hands I just wish I could see the heads.

I just feel more of a connection with people I guess when I can clearly see your smiling (not smiling, hats, funny ties, handlebar mustache's, funny faces, etc).

Me likes heads!

John Henry - I was not meaning you, really most people on here seem to do this. It was just something I had never really encountered before looking into playing dulcimer. I like seeing people who smile from the joy that playing brings them. Or maybe they laugh because they screw up a part (like me a TON).

So bring on the heads I say, pretty, pretty please.

LOL My head ain't to much to look at but I'll try and put it in my next vid. I usually pan in on my hands so if anyone wants to learn the song. Also my camera doesn't pick up sound to good from far away:)

Mandy ! I have been chewing my nails since you posted this, as it almost immediatly follows the posting of my last video. I therefore plead guilty as charged, but offer three points in mitigation !

I almost always concentrate the thrust of any video I offer on my dulcimer and what I am doing with it. There are some really good videos having excellent 'instructional' content to be found on our site, from people like Brian G, Dusty T, to name but two, which I am sure offer a good help to some newcomers to our musical world (which I realise you are not) and I have tried to illustate the way I play to the same end (and have had good feedback as a result of so doing)

I have limited ability with the computer and its associated 'gizmos', and while I do have a better means of producing videos, I tend to be by myself when I record one shot stuff with a cheapo webcam, and now know what angles, distances, ect work, and still leave 'contols' within easy reach

I always try to be considerate in my dealings with other people, and I am well aware that my playing position is likely to subject viewers to an irritating degree of glare resulting from the ever decreasing amount of hair that I possess !!

Having said that, I would not have missed seeing your daughter recently, and with reluctance concede that some of John K's shirts may just be worth a second glance ???

best wishes

JohnH

John Henry would make fun of my hats if I filmed everything from the head down...

Interesting points. I view videos as both entertainment and learning aids also, with a majority being viewed as entertainment for me. I've been in the banjo community for awhile and watched lots of those vids and 90% or more of them show the head. This is the first time really I'm encountering more of the "headless" vids. I was guessing that the purpose was to feature the hands. But if I could have everything the way I wanted I'd much prefer seeing heads. I like seeing people's smiles or lack of or just facial expressions and so forth. Plus if you are going to talk at all in your vids I would like to see your face.

Just wondering what others think about it. I guess I'll just have to get over it, but I was wondering what the deal was with it since I've not seen it with other instruments. I've seen piano vids too and they show the heads also usually.

Thanks for the replies.

Hi, Mandy! I show my head just to torture viewers! Oh, I think the first video I ever made-- a felt pick demonstration-- has me mostly headless. I was home alone when I made that video.

Ok I just want to say that this is partially a joke but there really is some truth to it also from my standpoint.

Why do most people not show their heads in their vids? I really want to see your head people. It's part of the whole experience IMO. I like seeing the dulcimer and all, but I really like seeing your head too. So please let me see some heads.

That's one of the main reasons I like youtube, I get to see heads and hands and instruments most times. Though it may be a challenge to get your camera to pan out that far or whatever I hope you'll try to show me your head in the future.

Hope I'm not being to demanding, but I just want some heads

I was just playing 'What A Friend We Have In Jesus' in tab that has both DAD and DAA tab, one right below the other. I was in DAA and just started playing it as if the upper line was my bass D. It made really nice chords that I didn't know of before, but then I figured out what I was playing on my bass D was actually the tab melody line for DAD tuning. So if tab comes in both DAD and DAA on top of each other, its like getting nice chords also! Just something I figured out today. A 'D' is a D the world round.

That's a great article Stumelia! I have an alt title for you "Tab...once more with feeling"

Strumelia said:

I wrote a blog post a while back called

"Tab....a blessing or an evil?"

Yep. Not too old to learn something new. Unfortunately, I'm too old to remember it.

Garey McAnally said:

Reading all the great discussion, I suddenly felt overwhelmed by ignorance. Does everyone in the world know what SMN is but me? I thought it might be something kinky. But, my friend, Mr. Google, set me straight. SMN- S tandard M usical N otation. Oh, I know what that is ! ! ! Not too old to learn 'sumpin' new.

Hi All what an excellent discussion!

I learned to read SMN in my teens in the school choir and local youth orchestra (double bass player)> I also was a self taught finger style guitarinst, and never used TAB for that, working mainly from books with SMN plus guitar chords, and learning by ear at church. I first encountered TAB about 5 years ago when I got an entry-level banjo with an instruction book (TAB and CD). I found it great for basics (in the absence of finding a teacher) but I can really identify with Mandy's point that she thinks that TAB maybe held back her development of the full knowledge and skills set for musicianship. My playing of ALL my instruments has leapt forward in the last 3 years since I got meself out to sessions and open mikes, got playing with others and set myself a regime for learning. In a way, I see TAB as being like using SatNav; if you rely on it alone a dependency builds and it can prevent the development of your own navigational skills which allow for more interesting and varied journeys. I can see its value in large group jams, and for beginners who may benefit from learning in that way (and Robin makes a very good point that we all learn in different ways so we must not enforce our own way as the only one!)

TAB still has some uses in my musical journey:I use TAB for a memory jogger, and I sometimes TAB out songs and tunes I have learned by ear or have in SMN, so that I can work out the smoothest "finger choreography" for the MD fretboard. As a mainly chord/ melody player this has proved to be really useful.

Interesting discussion!

When I started with the dulcimer 25 years ago I had played the guitar for many years. I either learned by guitar pieces by ear or by music (SMN.) I hated guitar tab, even though I had a couple of books which used it (along with SMN.) However, when I got my dulcimer, I bought tab books. I didn't try to read SMN; I played either by tab or by ear.

Now, coming back to the dulcimer after about a 10 year lay off, I find myself using SMN rather than tab. I'll use tab as guide if SMN isn't available and I now can read it perhaps better than I did 25 years ago. However, it is still a guide on the way and not the end of the journey. It's useful but not necessary. I have seen people who cannot without the tab or continue, after playing the song for years maybe, to play it exactly like the original tab. As a classical guitarist I know it's totally correct to play the musical score exactly as written, but the good players interpret what is written. They make it their own.

Which brings me to my point (if I have one.) Whatever you use, TAB, SMN, ABC, it's all a tool to do one thing: MAKE MUSIC. Any written notation is not the "music" it's a representation of the music and should be considered as a friendly guide to assist you along the way to the tune. The tune comes from your head and your hands and your heart, so whatever it takes to get those acting together (and in harmony) is a good thing. For me, if I were get a "do over" I probably wouldn't buy nearly as much tab as I did. I would find the music I like and play it and play it and play it.

So.... to answer your question, any written helps are a starting point around which you build YOUR version of a song/tune. Try to develop your ear because some TABS are going to be different from what you're hearing on a recording. It doesn't matter whether it was because someone was careless in their copying of a tab/music score or whether they were just wrong in the notes, the notation won't match what you're hearing. Listen carefully and compare, then play it the way you feel it!

Rob

This has been a great thread

I'm getting so much from it about how others prefer to learn. I have a complete beginner turning up for a lesson today and what I don't want to do is to just teach the way that "I" like to learn because there's a very good chance that they will have a very different learning preference to me!!!!!!

Just a bit about learning by ear - I do regularly "forget" tunes and need a memory jog to get them back. Folk who play by TAB seem to reach for that as a memory jog. I just need to hear a little phrase of the tune to bring it back to me. I often can't remember how some tunes start but there may well be a littlememorablephrase somewhere in the tune and if I can pick that up then I quickly have the whole tune.

I think that remembering tunes is a skill rather than a tallent - If it is something that you practice doing then it does get easier. But I can't saythat playing by earis easybecause, like any skill, I find it a constant struggle to improvemy listening skills.

Robin

I use tabs to get me started, learn the song, then put it away. I can play just a little by ear, but i use the tabs. It's a great way for someone like me that can't read music, to play an instrument.

Here is my quick synopsis on the process of learning an instrument.

- learn how to physically make noise on the instrument. (hold the instrument, hold the pick, position the left hand, strum the strings)

- learn how to play a musical sequence of notes

- play a song

- learn songs in the preferred genre

- hear a sequence of notes and be able to play them

- listen to a sequence of notes and play a facsimile thereof

- hear a song and play what you heard

- hear a song and play variations of what you heard

- play along in real time, anticipating intuitively where the melody will go

- write your own songs

- become rich and famous... : )...

These are not necessarily in order. Some people write their own songs right away and some can easily play a melody by ear. Some folks are already rich & famous. I am terrible at writing songs and/or creating new melodies and am well short of being rich and famous.

Tab is a wonderful aid to get started. I used tab to start learning. I was never very good at understanding the timing of it and seldom could learn a tune if I didn't already know how it went. But it got me going andtaught me a musical 'vocabulary'.Listening to lots of the kind of music you want to play is very important.

At some point in a timeline the tab needs to be set aside if you want to become a good player. There is a creative process going on somewhere in all of this and I suspect playing strictly from tab falls a bit short.It all depends on what your personal goals and capabilities are and how hard you want to work at it. For me the whole process has been and continues to be a lot of fun.

Hi Many and Lisa,

Even I, a nonTAB user, can see the benefits of some form of shorthand to get you going (I actually quite like Folkfan's 0,1,2,3 etc over the words of a song!). A little difficult to explain this concept but I would use TAB (or a simple version of TAB) to get someone to have the physical experience of playing. Because without that physical experience of making nice sounds that are related to one another, learning to play by ear may not get started at all. I think that a few folk have said that they use TAB to get going on a piece and then put it to one side once they have mastered whatever phrase or passage they were having difficulty with - and I can understand this. As I said, I tend touse a recording of the tune I am learning in the same way - once I have learnt the piece I'll put the recording to one side. I see that some may then refer back to the TAB if they forget the tune - I will play the recording of the tune again if I forget it or want to improve on where I am with it.

When I have taught I have used some form of TAB if needed. Not pre-prepared TAB but simple TAB (like Folkfan's)written in the moment with the student so we can learn a little passage and then turn the TAB over and keep playing. Once the TAB is gone this frees up capacity (the capacity that wasused for reading) for the student to start noticing other aspects of music like rhythm or timing or note intervals. So I will admit to TAB being a useful tool - it is just not one that I have ever used for my own playing.

My viewpoint, and I dabble a bit in each, not particularly good in any.

Visual; SMN for general or universal use, TAB for specific instrument, archives a specific variation of a tune/song.

Audio; storage devices [cd's, etc], individuals, archives a specific variation of a tune/song.

Both work, but not necessarily for everyone.

Each should be used as the situation indicates.

Stumalia hit the nail on the head in her blog.

Never understood why it has to be one or the other, both are useful to my mind.

I like to play by ear wherever poss. and can do far more from a tune I know or a sound clip than I can from TAB, and quicker.

Fine, if you can find exactly what you want, but sometimes you can only find some SMN, convert to TAB and then learn it by ear.

Point being that you may never have learnt the tune in the first place without TAB, even though you don't need to use it anymore.

john p